If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Firing Sentinel steam lorries

Discussion in 'Everything else Heritage' started by The Green Howards, Aug 25, 2016.

  1. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    3,183
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Occupation:
    Layabout
    Location:
    Your nightmares
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The film was completely clear, I should have stated.
     
  2. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    166
    Location:
    Salop
    Negative film, or reversal?

    If it's reversal film then for it to be totally clear with nothing on at all must mean either a monumental light leak, or messed up processing (or messing up during loading for processing fogged the lot to light!).

    If it's negative film that's totally clear, then that means it wasn't exposed to any light at all...
    ...in which case the edge markings should be obvious. Assuming it's film that does actually have edge markings!
    In which case I'd suggest it was even more likely to be a balls up on the processing front.
     
  3. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    3,183
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Occupation:
    Layabout
    Location:
    Your nightmares
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It was Ilford XP2. I am suspicious that it was a processing cock-up; the person on the counter said the images were 'barely there' but if it was a case of the camera under-exposing, I'd still expect to see the frame numbers and indeed, the brand. I had a play with the camera when I got home and it seems to do everything I'd expect playing with the shutter speeds and looking at the back of the camera.

    I'll not be going there again.
     
  4. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    166
    Location:
    Salop
    XP2 is Ilford's C41 B&W negative film, ie. it should be processing in standard *colour* negative film chemicals.

    What ever the problem, if the edge markings are washed out then the problem can't be you or your camera! If there was a light leak then it would all be solid black
    ....and if the shutter never opened then the film should be clear with just dark edge markings visible.

    I wonder if the muppets where you took it to be processed saw it said Ilford B&W and put it through standard B&W chemicals?
    A quick google shows this can be done, but the results are very washed out and low contrast. The suggestion from someone at Ilford technical services is to push process to boost contrast (ie. leaving it in the developer longer).

    To not get the edge markings correct suggests the film was rather massively under developed, which would also result in images "barely there". ie. they didn't leave it in the developer long enough.
    If it was just the images with strong edge codes then it would be an exposure issue on your part, but the edge codes means the processors ruined your film. :(

    If you flip to the second page of this document on B&W film faults you'll find what sounds like your problem - again says it was under developed
    http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/userfiles/file/faultsonblackandwhitenegatives.pdf


    It might be worth one return trip to them - to complain their processing ruined your film.
    ...followed by then using a different lab in future!
     
  5. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    3,183
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Occupation:
    Layabout
    Location:
    Your nightmares
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Oddly enough, the senior person in the shop checked the film and said "oh, C41, that's okay".

    Thanks for the linked document by the way: I know only too well what happens when you use fixer first - I lost a film at school that way. It had photos of the local village school on it just before it was demolished :(

    It's possible the film shipped with no dye layer and it wasn't their fault, but what are the chances of that? We have one independent lab locally but I've not been happy with that in the past, so it looks like I'll be investigating mail-order processing from now on :(

    I'm not sure what upsets me more - the loss of the photos, or the possibility that someone lied to me rather than fess up and say "we ruined your film." (or words to that effect) After all, they're covered by the usual clause about the value of the images not exceeding the cost of the processing... I was given a 24-frame Kodak colour film as compensation (not even a 36!), I'll try that in the Nikon.
     
  6. Johnb

    Johnb Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    5,689
    Likes Received:
    3,410
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Your last paragraph is wrong, as with any other service the law of negligence applies. I once had a 36 exp slide film ruined by being put through the wrong process and they tried to fob me off with a replacement film. I wrote and complained to their head office explaining that most of the pictures had cost me about £40 in petrol to obtain and were a record of a railway trip that wouldn't be repeated (it was City of Truro on the Welsh Marches) and there was always a possibility that I would miss out on repro fees if I sent them for publication. I suggested compensation of £100, they offered £25, I threatened small claims court and we settled at £50 and that was back in the 80s.
    It's a bit like those signs you see in car parks saying the owner accepts no liability for loss or damage, a complete nonsense, if you can prove they were negligent in some way then they are liable. I had a friend who had his car damaged by an insecure gate which the wind blew into his vehicle. The car park owner, a publican, pointed out the sign but a solicitors letter suggesting he contacts his public liability insurer did the trick.
     
  7. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    3,183
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Occupation:
    Layabout
    Location:
    Your nightmares
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Thanks for the notes regarding claiming against the processor, John; but sadly, money isn't going to get those photos back - Lincoln steam fair 2016, and 46233 running tender first on a main line! - and if I'm honest, I just don't have the fight in me any more :( It is much, MUCH easier to say "these things happen" and leave it at that.
     
  8. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    166
    Location:
    Salop
    Fixer first would be totally clear with no images at all, but you said the person on the counter claimed, "...the images were 'barely there'". That means it must have gone through some developer.
    If the images were barely there and it was processed correctly, then the edge markers would be clearly there. If the images were barely there and the edge markings barely there, then either as you say, the film was faulty from Ilford, or it was a processing error...

    Ilford would definately know if they'd produced and shipped a faulty batch if you contacted them - they make shed loads at a time and your roll wouldn't be the only one affected.

    I can understand the not being bothered with chasing though, especially if you've already got a consultation prize film from the lab (which sorta suggests they've admitted they're responsible).
    For me the key thing would be the knowledge neither you nor your camera were the problem. :)

    For many years I used The Darkroom in Cheltenham (mailorder) for getting reversal processed. For B&W I'd process my own, but I did use them to get some B&W prints done from the negs before I was able to darken the kitchen and got an enlarger to do my own prints. I was happy with their service (including hand B&W prints as well if you wanted). http://www.the-darkroom.co.uk/

    If you like B&W and are going to have to use mail order for processing anyway, then it might be worth considering Ilford Lab? https://www.ilfordlab.com/ That would open up the world of all their (and other manufacturer's) traditional B&W films, rather than being limited to C41.

    If nothing else, you've got an excuse to go back to Lincoln again this year :)
     
  9. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    3,183
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Occupation:
    Layabout
    Location:
    Your nightmares
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Well, I took another look at the film yesterday (because I wasn't depressed enough) - and yes, there are a few faint highlights visible - but my goodness, you have to stare hard to see them! I might approach Ilford and ask if they've had any rogue batches of XP2 ship, just in case.

    The other camera - a Pentax MZ-50 - is loaded with Ilford HP5 and I had the camera repaired and serviced by Asahi Photo in Brentford so I know it's okay.

    Thanks also for the processing links - they look worth a go so I think I know where the HP5 in the MZ-50 is heading when it's ready.
     
    I. Cooper likes this.
  10. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    3,183
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Occupation:
    Layabout
    Location:
    Your nightmares
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Well, Ilford Lab is now seemingly called Harman Lab, but the attached was taken with the 'faulty' camera at the LSVR this year - again, on XP2 - and processed by them.

    [​IMG]

    Doesn't look faulty to me.
     
    I. Cooper likes this.
  11. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    166
    Location:
    Salop
    Looking highly very non-faulty to me too, which is good news :)

    ...Mr Straughan's DG8 and lowy loader unit in the background (right).

    Here's a little clippette from a couple of years ago when Messrs Walker/Carney and Team Straughan had an evening trundle from Onslow park across Shrewsbury back to the works...


    (edit: There are medium sized oil tankers with a tighter turning circle than the DG8! Lol)
     
    Wenlock likes this.
  12. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    27,926
    Likes Received:
    3,278
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Note the evasive action taken at about 3.00..... not easy with the heavy steering, power steering not invented when when DG8s were built...
     
    I. Cooper likes this.
  13. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    3,183
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Occupation:
    Layabout
    Location:
    Your nightmares
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I spotted that too - I suspect that X-type would not have stood contact with a DG8 well....
     
  14. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    166
    Location:
    Salop
    One of the disadvantages of driving a vehicle with stupidly heavy steering (got twice the number of wheels to turn as normal, and they're already heavy with boiler, all coal bunkers and the water tank sitting over front axle), a hand throttle, not overly wide lanes on the road, and negotiating a bend on the approach to traffic lights.

    What isn't so obvious is that the traffic lights changed to red as the vehicles approached them and the lead car swapped lanes to tuck in between the two waggons, with the indication that the one following one would too. With the lights changed the car on the offside lane stopped - as you might expect it to. Unfortunately this meant suddenly the waggon was left veering more towards the car. The driver had to fight the heavy steering with both hands to avoid the vehicle, which meant he didn't have a spare hand to close the regulator and actually stop for the lights himself. Richard (still) hasn't quite got around to connecting up a wire from the cab to the whistle (located on the cab roof), so the toot on the whistle came from a passenger on the back to warn other vehicles as the waggon carried on at the same speed straight across the lights.

    Hey Ho, one of the delights of driving steam vehicles in modern traffic. One of the worse is temporary traffic lights with a roller, they're green when you set off, but then can sometimes turn back to red even before you've passed the lights themselves, or else long before you've got through the road works. All you can do is give a flippin' great blast on the whistle to try and indicate to oncoming traffic that the road isn't clear despite what the lights might indicate! ....or traffic lights that change to green so you open the regulator, the soddin' single gives half a chuff and stops on dead centre. By the time you've swung the reverser and go moving forwards again you watch the lights change back to red <sigh> - same response again, else you'll never get past them!

    At the junction under the railway bridges I'd warned to keep to the right even though we wanted to turn left on the other side of the bridge, but that it was going to be a hellish tight turn for the waggon. As can be seen a bit in the video, fortunately as we emerged at the junction the traffic approaching the red light around the corner could see there wasn't a hope in hell of getting round without crossing the white line, and thus pulled out of the way for us. They got a big "thank you" (as well as the toot) from from all on board.
     
    Copper-capped likes this.
  15. Tim Light

    Tim Light Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2016
    Messages:
    764
    Likes Received:
    331
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I photographed this beauty at Embsay back in 2006, and later passed it on the Skipton Bypass. It was certainly shifting. How fast are they allowed to go?
    100_2221.jpg
     
  16. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    2,112
    Likes Received:
    1,077
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    When we got married my wife & I hired a BristolRE (Late 60's bus) to take us to Bath & back.

    While it has a semi automatic box, the steering is pure manual and the poor driver was working the wheel like the helmsman of a ship in a rough sea. I have been told by other RE drivers that you need to 'line it up' long before any manouvres
     
  17. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    166
    Location:
    Salop
    They're allowed to go as fast as any other lorry of about 7-8 tons on pneumatic tyres.

    ...how fast will they go is another matter!
    An S-type like you've photographed there is the speed demon of the class. Team Carney/Walker's S6 was clocked doing 60 on the Cuddington bypass some years ago - granted Peter lent over to the person driving and suggested that bearing in mind the condition of the (original) tyres at that point, they may care to ease off a little! It's sitting on new rubber these days. On the open road they'll generally cruise around 40-50mph, but put them on a hill and they'll fall right back. The S-Type engine is a 4 cylinder single acting affair with shaft drive (hence 'S' type). The earlier models were two cylinder double acting engines with chain drive.

    A DG will probably sit at around 30 on the road, although some have had their sprokets tweaked so will run a little faster, others will run a little slower.

    You can certainly travel serious distances in a shortish period of time with a Sentinel.
     
  18. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    166
    Location:
    Salop
    ...a couple of DGs barking up Talerddig in the rain, probably around 2004/5ish
    [​IMG]

    (probably HP5+ home developed, but certainly Bronica SQA)
     
  19. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2016
    Messages:
    3,183
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Occupation:
    Layabout
    Location:
    Your nightmares
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Following one of the S4s last year (the one bedecked in Cadbury's livery) it was certainly maintaining 45-50mph with ease on the level.
     
  20. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    166
    Location:
    Salop
    Ta daa...

    [​IMG]

    Yeah, given good conditions, and a stoker who knows they're stuff, S types will fly! :)
    (any old idot can drive a Sentinel, the skill is in the stoker's seat... apparently, I've only ever tried firing and it's pure magic to me if it goes well. All you see is a 6" circle in the middle of the grate, viewed from directly above. No skill when I'm involved, just luck!)
     

Share This Page